Powerline Networking Question
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Posted by Patrick Keenan on March 2, 2006, 10:39 am
Please log in for more thread options This may be posted to the wrong group - if so, please let me know where would be better. It's kind of a cabling issue... I'm pretty sure I'm missing something obvious here. I have a client with a large house with massive walls, which prevent wireless from being a viable option outside of the room containing the wireless access point. There are three locations needing network service - two offices (West and East) on either side of the ground-floor foyer, and the exercise room in the basement. I'm generally not permitted to run cable, though I was able to co-opt an existing cat5 cable from the West office to the phone closet in the basement, about 50 feet from the computer in the exercise room. I've added keystone jacks to this and the cable functions properly. So, we've tried Netgear XE-102 power line ethernet adapters, and this works just great for the two offices on the ground floor. In the West office, the DSL service goes to a router (Netgear RP114, providing DHCP), which feeds the local PC and also feeds a XE-102 (#1). I've also put ends on a cat5 cable someone ran to the phone closet at the far end of the basement, and this cable works. No problems here. In the East office, another XE-102 (#2) picks up the signal and goes to another Netgear wireless router (just acting as switch and Wireless Access Point). This has a Phaser printer connected to it and provides wireless for the laptop on the desk. No problems here either; this works very well. However, XE-102 (#3) in the exercise room in the basement does not work well at all. The two offices upstairs appear to be on a single circuit; the basement exercise room is not only on another circuit but another breaker panel. The XE102 downstairs can just barely get a connect - at best it can pick up an IP address, but can't connect to the router, by browser, ping, or telnet (that router does support telnet). Everything times out. DHCP renews will often time out. If I run a long cable from the cat5 drop to the phone closet in place of the cable from the XE-102, the network wakes right up to full speed, so I don't think there is, say, a firewall issue. Unfortunately, running this cable is not acceptable to the client. So, on the idea that the second breaker panel is a barrier that the XE-102 #3 isn't crossing, I added a fourth XE-102 (#4) to an electric outlet on the same circuit as the XE-102 #3, and connected it to the cat5 drop in the phone room, which is connected to the RP114 router in the West office. The moment I plug the cat5 cable from the router to the fourth XE-102 in, the activity light on that XE-102 and all the port activity lights on both routers upstairs start flashing constantly, several times per second. The network as a whole suffers very badly. Unplugging that cable stops this, but may have triggered a need to power cycle the two routers upstairs to restore stability. It looks rather like a loop feeding itself. I've tried swapping in other XE-102 units; they all behave in the same manner. Obviously this idea of the fourth XE-102 jumpered to the router doesn't work the way I hoped it would. Any suggestions as to how to get a solid signal to XE-102 #3 on the second breaker panel? Thanks for any assistance (or redirection to a better forum). Patrick Keenan | |||||||||||||||||||
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Posted by Phil Partridge on March 2, 2006, 2:12 pm
Please log in for more thread options Regarding the two different breaker panels.. I suspect they are on different phases. This means your signal has to go all the way back to the local transformer, or substation, before it can 'jump' to the other phase and back to you.. If this is the case, I am surprised you get anything. Regarding the rest of your question.. I have read it twice, but am going to have to read it again, and draw it out. ;-) Not your fault, just easier to understand. Have you made up CAT5 cables before? Do you know the difference between 568A and 568B? Have you any test gear, or can you borrow any? Will come back to this once I have drawn it out... Might even hunt up a website for the XE-102 thingy's. Soon, Philip Partridge | |||||||||||||||||||
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Posted by Patrick Keenan on March 2, 2006, 3:54 pm
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>>This may be posted to the wrong group - if so, please let me know where
>>would be better. It's kind of a cabling issue... >> >>I'm pretty sure I'm missing something obvious here. >> >>I have a client with a large house with massive walls, which prevent >>wireless from being a viable option outside of the room containing the >>wireless access point. There are three locations needing network >>service - two offices (West and East) on either side of the ground-floor >>foyer, and the exercise room in the basement. >> >> I'm generally not permitted to run cable, though I was able to co-opt an >>existing cat5 cable from the West office to the phone closet in the >>basement, about 50 feet from the computer in the exercise room. I've >>added >>keystone jacks to this and the cable functions properly. >> >>So, we've tried Netgear XE-102 power line ethernet adapters, and this >>works >>just great for the two offices on the ground floor. >> >>In the West office, the DSL service goes to a router (Netgear RP114, >>providing DHCP), which feeds the local PC and also feeds a XE-102 (#1). >>I've also put ends on a cat5 cable someone ran to the phone closet at the >>far end of the basement, and this cable works. No problems here. >> >>In the East office, another XE-102 (#2) picks up the signal and goes to >>another Netgear wireless router (just acting as switch and Wireless Access >>Point). This has a Phaser printer connected to it and provides wireless >>for the laptop on the desk. No problems here either; this works very >>well. >> >>However, XE-102 (#3) in the exercise room in the basement does not work >>well at all. The two offices upstairs appear to be on a single circuit; >>the basement exercise room is not only on another circuit but another >>breaker panel. The XE102 downstairs can just barely get a connect - at >>best it can pick up an IP address, but can't connect to the router, by >>browser, ping, or telnet (that router does support telnet). Everything >>times out. DHCP renews will often time out. >> >>If I run a long cable from the cat5 drop to the phone closet in place of >>the >>cable from the XE-102, the network wakes right up to full speed, so I >>don't >>think there is, say, a firewall issue. Unfortunately, running this cable >>is not acceptable to the client. >> >>So, on the idea that the second breaker panel is a barrier that the XE-102 >>#3 isn't crossing, I added a fourth XE-102 (#4) to an electric outlet on >>the same circuit as the XE-102 #3, and connected it to the cat5 drop in >>the >>phone room, which is connected to the RP114 router in the West office. >> >>The moment I plug the cat5 cable from the router to the fourth XE-102 in, >>the activity light on that XE-102 and all the port activity lights on both >>routers upstairs start flashing constantly, several times per second. >>The >>network as a whole suffers very badly. Unplugging that cable stops this, >>but may have triggered a need to power cycle the two routers upstairs to >>restore stability. It looks rather like a loop feeding itself. >> >>I've tried swapping in other XE-102 units; they all behave in the same >>manner. >> >>Obviously this idea of the fourth XE-102 jumpered to the router doesn't >>work >>the way I hoped it would. Any suggestions as to how to get a solid signal >>to XE-102 #3 on the second breaker panel? >> >>Thanks for any assistance (or redirection to a better forum). >> >>Patrick Keenan >> >> >> > This forum is fine..
> > Regarding the two different breaker panels.. I suspect they are on > different phases. This means your signal has to go all the way back to > the local transformer, or substation, before it can 'jump' to the other > phase and back to you.. If this is the case, I am surprised you get > anything. It's a big house with at least two 200+ amp panels. Large amounts of steel bar and concrete, so wireless security isn't an issue - wireless has no more than a few feet range outside of the room with the AP. There's also an elevator and the wine cellar door is from a bank vault. > Regarding the rest of your question.. I have read it twice, but am going
> to have to read it again, and draw it out. ;-) Not your fault, just > easier to understand. I can understand that. It's perhaps a slightly confusing setup. If I can figure out how to draw it and post it somewhere, I would do so. > Have you made up CAT5 cables before?
Yes, I have, on regular occasions, with good and reliable results. I use (female) jacks and buy premade cables to go between the jacks and whatever devices. > Do you know the difference between 568A and 568B?
I normally wire them to B. >
> Have you any test gear, or can you borrow any? Some. The cable I put ends on tested fine with a cable tester, and it works properly with my laptop, and with a 100' cable leading to the target machine in the exercise room. So, I think the cable itself and the connectors are fine. The problem only occurs when I add in the 4th XE-102 (and I have swapped in others in case that one unit had failed). Then the routers go crazy until I unplug that 4th unit. It's like I have caused a feedback loop. > Will come back to this once I have drawn it out... Might even hunt up a
> website for the XE-102 thingy's. This is the basic product page: http://www.netgear.com/products/details/XE102.php The ones on the upper floor work great. It's a simple and normally very effective solution to a problem we regularly face. They don't look cheap, but they cut so much installation time out that the client comes out ahead. > Soon,
> Philip Partridge Thanks very much! Patrick Keenan | |||||||||||||||||||
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Posted by none on March 2, 2006, 11:36 pm
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> It's a big house with at least two 200+ amp panels. Large amounts of
steel
> bar and concrete, so wireless security isn't an issue - wireless has no
more
> than a few feet range outside of the room with the AP. There's also an
> elevator and the wine cellar door is from a bank vault. Regarding a comment by a previous person, I would agree it is probably (at least partially) a power phase problem. You need to find out what kind of power (3 phase or split phase) and install a phase coupler on the service panel. This Netgear XE-102 is not recommended for business use, it may not be 3 phase compatible (the web page and manual are missing a lot of implementation details). You may be getting interference on the power line from lighting (dimmers, transformers, flourescent, etc.) or other inductive loads (office machines, computers, appliances, TVs, exercise equipment, etc.). You can buy filters for these. This problem has been well discussed in the powerline home automation forums (and you can find plenty of places online selling powerline filters for home automation). Another option might be a HomePNA type network (phone line network) or if there are some existing CAT5 cables you could borrow some unused pairs. And, if you can even find regular cabling there are high speed solutions available for that (www.blackbox.com is a good place to start). ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---- | |||||||||||||||||||
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Posted by David Lesher on March 2, 2006, 11:37 pm
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Is there phone cable available? You can buy HomePNA that is, in effect, in-house DSL and run it across in-place telco IW. That is is likely more stable than the powerline stuff. HomePNA is not all that popular any more. Try surplus places and eBay as well as people at http://www.homepna.org/ -- A host is a host from coast to coast.................wb8foz@nrk.com & no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433 is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433 | |||||||||||||||||||
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>would be better. It's kind of a cabling issue...
>
>I'm pretty sure I'm missing something obvious here.
>
>I have a client with a large house with massive walls, which prevent
>wireless from being a viable option outside of the room containing the
>wireless access point. There are three locations needing network
>service - two offices (West and East) on either side of the ground-floor
>foyer, and the exercise room in the basement.
>
> I'm generally not permitted to run cable, though I was able to co-opt an
>existing cat5 cable from the West office to the phone closet in the
>basement, about 50 feet from the computer in the exercise room. I've added
>keystone jacks to this and the cable functions properly.
>
>So, we've tried Netgear XE-102 power line ethernet adapters, and this works
>just great for the two offices on the ground floor.
>
>In the West office, the DSL service goes to a router (Netgear RP114,
>providing DHCP), which feeds the local PC and also feeds a XE-102 (#1).
>I've also put ends on a cat5 cable someone ran to the phone closet at the
>far end of the basement, and this cable works. No problems here.
>
>In the East office, another XE-102 (#2) picks up the signal and goes to
>another Netgear wireless router (just acting as switch and Wireless Access
>Point). This has a Phaser printer connected to it and provides wireless
>for the laptop on the desk. No problems here either; this works very well.
>
>However, XE-102 (#3) in the exercise room in the basement does not work
>well at all. The two offices upstairs appear to be on a single circuit;
>the basement exercise room is not only on another circuit but another
>breaker panel. The XE102 downstairs can just barely get a connect - at
>best it can pick up an IP address, but can't connect to the router, by
>browser, ping, or telnet (that router does support telnet). Everything
>times out. DHCP renews will often time out.
>
>If I run a long cable from the cat5 drop to the phone closet in place of the
>cable from the XE-102, the network wakes right up to full speed, so I don't
>think there is, say, a firewall issue. Unfortunately, running this cable
>is not acceptable to the client.
>
>So, on the idea that the second breaker panel is a barrier that the XE-102
>#3 isn't crossing, I added a fourth XE-102 (#4) to an electric outlet on
>the same circuit as the XE-102 #3, and connected it to the cat5 drop in the
>phone room, which is connected to the RP114 router in the West office.
>
>The moment I plug the cat5 cable from the router to the fourth XE-102 in,
>the activity light on that XE-102 and all the port activity lights on both
>routers upstairs start flashing constantly, several times per second. The
>network as a whole suffers very badly. Unplugging that cable stops this,
>but may have triggered a need to power cycle the two routers upstairs to
>restore stability. It looks rather like a loop feeding itself.
>
>I've tried swapping in other XE-102 units; they all behave in the same
>manner.
>
>Obviously this idea of the fourth XE-102 jumpered to the router doesn't work
>the way I hoped it would. Any suggestions as to how to get a solid signal
>to XE-102 #3 on the second breaker panel?
>
>Thanks for any assistance (or redirection to a better forum).
>
>Patrick Keenan
>
>
>