Custom Cable tv

In single unit residential property, no, they can't. Not without your permission. Once it's installed in the home, it ceases to be personal property, and becomes a part of the real property. You own the real property. They do not have an easement or any other kind of lein on the cabling that has become a part of your real property.

This does not apply to commercial or some multi-unit residential properties, including common areas in condos, co-ops, or HOA's.

You have the right to refuse them access. You have the right to refuse to allow any changes. They have the right to disconnect you from their network. They cannot unilatterally make changes to cabling that has become a part of your real property. You must grant them permission to do so. The only place they can demand access to is any cable running in their easment, which typically is on their side of the tap. Even your drop typically runs outside their easement, and is part of your real property.

You're talking about commercial or multi-unit residential which is an entirely different animal than single unit residential. The cable company has no right to demand access to any part of your property except for the utility easement properly recorded in the county records. They cannot demand access to someone's home. They can, however, disconnect you from their network. That act could only be done within their easement, for example at the tap, not at the house end of the drop.

The situation is different for commercial and multi-unit residential, including common areas of condos, co-ops, and HOA's.

Homeowners, sitting in their single family homes, do not have to worry about a cable company ever asking for the installed cable back. They don't have to allow cable company employees access. The only recourse the cable company has is they can disconnect the home owner from their network. After that happens, the home owner is free to repurpose that cable for use with a satellite TV system, or a different cable company's system, or whatever they want to use it for. The cable company cannot remove it. They cannot demand it's removal. And once it's disconnected from their network, they cannot dictate it's use.

Reply to
Warren H
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Wow. Opened up a can of worms with this one...

The cable company (and the phone company), is responsible for connecting your house to the distribution system. There is a clearly defined demarcation point where the company's responsibility ends and the customer's responsibility begins (this is also true to a point in electrical systems, although most power companies make the home electrician run all the drop cable). In the case of cable tv, the demarc is usually the ground block. However, most cable companies use an interface box (sometimes called a SDU or NIU) as the demarc. Where I used to work, there was a court case that decided the demarc was 1 ft outside the SDU or the ground block, if no SDU was installed. However, this was for a very specific reason I don't really want to get into right now, and was hardly precedent setting.

That being said, there is a constant struggle between the "customer friendly" factions and the "stick to the rules" factions in most cable companies. The technician is to do whatever is necessary to get the customer up and running, unless the problem is wiring that "can't be replaced" by the tech, at which time he is to inform the customer that the problem is inside there house and they should contact an electrician to replace the bad wire. However, this almost never happens, since the electrician will want big bucks, or in the case of a builder, will get into a pissing contest with the cable company about his crappy cable being "just fine" and that technician is "full of shit*" and handing the customer a "big bill" for "wasting their time." This causes a trip to the office, equipment in hand, and a lot of bad feelings. If a supervisor is available, they have a little chat with the customer, roll another truck, and most likely the next tech will run another line, or do a better job of documenting the problems with the bad line. Trust me, it is almost always better to just run a new cable if there's any way to make it happen. That way the customer is at least able to get service, and they can deal with the builder without having to get us involved.

So, if you haven't been discouraged by all the scary stuff in this thread, go for it. I've thought of doing custom low voltage stuff for years, but never had the stones to strike out on my own. Besides, I like being able to play with all the big toys (and get free cable).

As far as the yacht, I would think as long as you followed NEC guidelines for grounding shore power, it shouldn't be a big deal (although cable only comes in 1000 ft rolls... sorry. I couldn't help it).

Eric

Eric

*technical term
Reply to
Eric

Sure, any cable company will run outlets and activate them. However, many systems don't wall fish, or install outlets in apartments/condos, and in some cases rentals. Same is true for the phone company. It is just that an electrician or low voltage contractor may do a better job, since they are only charging for the installation of the cable, not the service activation (you'll also pay much more for the electrician). Can't get cable without an active outlet!

Reply to
Eric

Inside wiring is put there because it is necessary. The customer pays for it at the time of installation. They may have only paid .99 for it, but they did pay something. Physical cable is a capital expense for the cable company.

The only thing you may not be right on is the drop, but it depends on where the franchise (or some legal document) determines the demarc is. As I understand it, most of them say it is at the ground block, since that follows generally accepted practices with other utilities (power company at the meter base, phone company at the NIU). If you want to use the cable company drop for connection to a satellite dish, for example, that is not allowed, but if you disconnect the drop from the ground block and attach a line to a dish, that is OK.

Of course, if you're steaming mad at the cable company, we'll be happy to remove the drop from your house. Just understand that pant sticks to plastic jacket material better than wood! :)

Reply to
Eric

Regarding the difference between cable installed in a single unit and a multi-unit building, I had a conversation with one of our owners who is a licensed Real Estate Attorney in the State of California, specialising in home owner association law. She works in the lien division of a well-known HOA law firm in Los Angeles. She said that she knows of no distinction in the law between cabling installed in the walls of a single family residence and in the common area (i.e. in the walls) of an MDU building, and she asked rhtorically, "Why should there be?" Like an attorney, she did not deny what you stated, but merely that she does not, in her legal training and experience, know it to be true. Perhaps you have had contact with attorneys more specialized in utility company law, or perhaps you have been brain-washed by your company's corporate culture. Either way, the ownership rights of cabling installed by a cable company and the right to control its usage past the demarcation point is still cloudy.

I suspect that the normal procedure by a cable company installing the cable itself in an MDU building is to require a contract that guarantees it sole usage past the demarcation point since much of the cabling installed would not immediately be used to support a subscription and thus not result in immediate cash flow (unless there were a bulk account covering ALL units). In a single family residence, in contrast, there is a guarantee of an immediate cash flow that would pay for the cabling job. That would explain why our cable company was so surprised to find that they had no contract with us - if they had installed the cabling themselves, there WOULD have been a contract, and it is such a contract that would make legally clear what the cable company's rights are. And that is why they turned around and offered us a discount on a bulk subscription in return for an exclusive usage contract - they knew satellite TV was coming.

*TimDaniels*
Reply to
Timothy Daniels

Timothy Daniels wrote>

I'll give you a slightly different example to help illustrate the difference.

(First off, there are only two kinds of property: Real property, and Personal property. So when I speak of personal property, that doesn't necessarily mean a person owns it. A business could own it. Personal property is simply anything that isn't real property.)

You own your home. You have a cabinet installed. That cabinet when it's sitting in the kitchen waithing to be installed is personal property. When it gets installed, it becomes part of the real property. When you move, you don't get to take the installed cabinet with you because it is now part of the house.

You own a business. You have a cabinet installed. That cabinet when it's sitting in the middle of the store is personal property. When it gets installed, it does not become part of the real property. It is a trade fixture, and remains personal property.

See the difference?

In a single family home, there is no question, the cabinet becomes real property. In a factory, a store, or any other facility that's clearly commercial, the cabinet remains personal property because it's a trade fixture. Multi-unit residential property is a tricky animal, and different states may make draw the line differently. Inside a residential unit is also going to be different than in common areas.

In a single family home, there is no question that in order for the cable company to maintain a proprietary interest in the cable that's installed, they would need a lien. They can't maintain a proprietary interest in the cable once it becomes part of the real property.

In a commercial property, the cable company can keep a proprietary interest in the trade fixtures they install if it's in the installation contract. Even if they don't retain a proprietary interest in the cable, it belongs to the business owner, not the landlord (the owner of the real property). Whoever owns the trade fixture has a right to take it with them, even after a sale of the real property, assuming that they return the real property to pre-installation condition.

If someone occupieing an apartment installes a light fixture, before it is installed, it's the renter's personal property. Once it's installed, it's the landlord's real property, and the renter technically cannot remove and restore without the real property owner giving up title to the property. If a business is renting the property, when they install that light fixture, it remains their personal property, and they can remove and restore without requesting the real property owner give up title because the real property owner never had title to the fixture. But what about installing a fixture in a non-residental portion of an apartment building, or the common area of a condo or co-op?

The question is when does personal property become real property. In the case of a single family residential unit, it's clearly when that personal property is installed. In the case of clearly commercial property, that personal property can remain personal property even after being installed because it's a trade fixture. The issue is where does multi-unit residential property fall in this spectrum. And don't forget, the common areas are different than the individual residential units, too.

I would suggest that you did not present the question correctly to your attorney friend. And I would also suggest that those situations in the middle of the spectrum are exactly why attornies stay in business. Absent of any clearly applicable statutes, it is quite possible for there to be a difference of opinion based just on the Common Law that is the foundation of our legal system. There can also be a difference in opinion as to whether specific statues apply in a given case. So when your attorney asked you "why would there be a difference", that could also be taken as, "which side of the arguement do you want me to take", as people on both sides will easily be able to find attornies who can support either side of the arguement.

Nope. It comes down to the difference between when personal property becomes real property, and how easily they can keep a proprietary interest in the cable itself, versus what the benefit of retaining that proprietary interest in the cable may be.

If there wasn't a difference, as soon as the MDU's contract for service ended, they could simply use the cable left behind for whatever they wanted to use it for, just the same way a homeowner can use the cable installed in their property.

So in one case, the cable is personal property, specifically a trade fixture, while in the other case, the cable becomes a part of the real property. Simple concepts. What's questionable is where is the line drawn. Single-family homes are clearly on one end of the spectrum. MDU's are in the middle, and given that the cable companies routinely claim to retain proprietary rights in the cable they install in MDU's, it's quite clear that there is a difference.

If there isn't a difference, then either homeowners wouldn't be able to convert their inside cabling for their own use, or the contracts that the cable companies have with many MDU's would be unenforceable. But again, you could easily get attorneys who would be willing to argue any side of the issue, and offer compelling support for their position.

Our best bet is to go with what is practiced every day. And that is that the cable companies treat single family homes differently than MDU's regardless of the variations in state laws that could apply. The practice is there is a difference, and that's what it comes down to.

Reply to
Warren H

Say what?

*TimDaniels*
Reply to
Timothy Daniels

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