X10 Controller Oddness?

I am still somewhat new to all this so pardon the newbie questions...

I have 2 manual controllers, a CMA11, a number of modules (light and applicance), and a couple switches (XPS3 alone and with XPSS or WS14A) installed in my house. Generally, these work well and as expected. However, I am trying to debug an occasional issue so I am running my ActiveHome (v 1.3) connected to my CMA11 and watching the communications log.

In so doing, I am using my manual controllers - an MC460 and a Radio Shack mini controller timer - to turn units on and off. When I do this, I do not see any activity in the communications log for the device which is supposed to be controlled (B 1-4). Instead, I always see an M13 followed by an M All Units Off with each controller action (both off and on actions). This seems odd to me:

(a) Why don't I see something in the log for the B1 device I am turning on and off? The unit does indeed go on/off.

(b) Why am I seeing any activity on the M house code when all the controllers are set to B?

I must be missing something obvious.

Thanks,

David

Reply to
David White
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I have recently installed two XPS3 switches. One - inside my garage - has a XPSS (WS14A) companion installed and controls my interior garage lights (both incandescent and fluorescent). The other is stand-alone and controls the lights on the garage's exterior (incandescent only).

I also have a mini controller (MC460) plugged into an outlet inside the garage in a location where there are no switches so I can operate both interior and exterior lights.

Finally, I have my computer connected to a CM11A running ActiveHome (1.3x). I am using this only for test purposes right now.

So here are the issues:

(a) It seems that the mini controller can ALWAYS turn the interior lights on (B5) but it has difficulty turning them off sometimes. When this happens, repeated attempts sometimes work - but not always.

(b) I find the same as (a) when using ActiveHome and the CM11A to control the interior garage lights (B5).

(c) Neither the mini controller or CM11A seem to have any problems with the stand-alone XPS3 for the exterior lights (B6). They appear to go on/off first time, every time.

(d) I have also noted that the interior garage lights sometimes (while I was in the garage) turn themselves off. This auto-off thing is rare but it has happened twice that I have noticed (maybe more not noticed).

My first thought is that the interior XPS3 is faulty (or maybe the companion) since the controller issue seems limited to that switch AND because that switch does the weird auto-off thing. But the interior lights ALWAYS seem to respond when either the XPS3 or XPSS is pressed directly an the controllers always are able to turn them on. So I am not really sure I can blame them.

That would seem to saddle the problem with the controllers. But I'd think it very unlikely that BOTH controllers are somehow bad. And they both work fine on the exterior lights (and other devices). Plus, they do turn the interior lights ON first time, every time.

Any ideas or suggestions?

Thanks

Reply to
David White

Reply to
BruceR

Thanks for the response Bruce. I had not heard of the XTB units. But in my old house I had a SmartHome SignalLinc (no booster) in my dryer outlet. It will not fit my dryer in the new house though (and there is not enough room behind to fit).

If I understand the SignalLinc and BoosterLinc operation, they both are attempting to create a better bridge across the two sides of my electric panel so that signals can pass more easily (the booster adds some form of signal amplification). Is this correct and true also of Jeff's units?

I have not checked yet to see if the garage interior light circuit and the circuits having the controllers are on different sides of the panel. If they turn out to be on the SAME side, what sort of improvement might I expect from such a unit as Jeff's?

Thanks.

BruceR wrote:

Reply to
David White

I have recently installed an XPSS/XPS3 combination for my interior garage lights. Among the myriad of questions/issues I have been having, I note the following which is not really that important but still a mystery:

When I turn on the lights via either the XPS3 master switch or the XPSS slave switch, I see an LED light up on the XPS3. However, although there seems to be a similar LED in the XPSS, I never see it come on. Other than this (and the occasional automatic lights turning off) the switches seem to be working correctly.

Does this indicate that I hosed-up the wiring? Or is that not really an LED in the XPSS (the manual implies that it is)? Or is it just that the LED in the XPSS is not working?

Thanks

Reply to
David White

Yes. I've been so impressed by its performance that I wrote an article about it for Hometoys:

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Since I installed the XTB-IIR (the coupler/repeater version) my X-10 stuff just works and that's really much greater praise than it sounds. Unfortunately, it sounds like you'll have to get an electrician to install it. That's easier than it sounds, because it basically means installing a new 240VAC outlet somewhere, hopefully near the circuit panel. It increase the power of the X-10 signal (according to the formula P=VA) nearly 25 times over the standard X-10 signal. So far, the only problem has been a chime module that "sings" softly whenever the XTB transmits, and that was solved by moving it further away from the XTB.

Reply to
Robert Green

Yes. I've been so impressed by its performance that I wrote an article about it for Hometoys:

formatting link
Since I installed the XTB-IIR (the coupler/repeater version) my X-10 stuff "just works" and that's really much greater praise than it sounds.

Unfortunately, it seems like you'll have to get an electrician to install the XTB-IIR but that's easier than it sounds, because it basically means installing a new 240VAC outlet somewhere, hopefully near the circuit panel. It increases the power of the X-10 signal (according to the formula P=VA) nearly 25 times over the standard X-10 signal. So far, the only problem has been a chime module that "sings" softly whenever the XTB transmits, and that was solved by moving it further away from the XTB.

Tremendous improvement. I was considering scrapping my significant X-10 investment because the signal problems became worse every year. I was about at wit's end when the XTB came along and I figure it's saved me 1,000's of $ and 100's of hours of deinstalling X-10 gear and installing new stuff.

With the mandated switch to CFL's coming soon, I am afraid that the XTB is going to become mandatory for most X-10 installations. Fluorescent lights have become the number once source of X-10 "trouble on the line" for me. Last month, a shoplite that had shown no X-10 band noise for the first few years of its life began emitting noise at nearly 2 volts - strong enough to cause plenty of trouble. I've had to invest more heavily than I'd like in X-10 filters, but the filters allow me to use fluorescent bulbs without problem, and with the recent hikes in electricity rates, they'll pay for themselves in short order. Eventually, anything 110VAC that's got a light socket will be behind an X-10 filter. I've found that nearly identical runs of CFL's can have significantly different electrical characteristics.

-- Bobby G.

Reply to
Robert Green

(Apologies for sending the first message "scarce half made up" and prematurely. My new keyboard's left sits just where the heel of my hand used to rest on the old one. Inadvertent pressing of the control key causes some pretty serious problems - time to pop the keycap!)

Yes. I've been so impressed by its performance that I wrote an article about it for Hometoys:

formatting link
Since I installed the XTB-IIR (the coupler/repeater version) my X-10 stuff "just works" and that's really much greater praise than it sounds.

You may need an electrician to install the XTB-IIR but that's easier than it sounds, because it basically means installing a new 240VAC outlet somewhere, hopefully near the circuit panel. You don't even need to find an "X-10 smart electrician" for the project. I found it challenging, but I was able to do it myself and I'm no great talent in the electrical deparment.

The XTB increases the power of the X-10 signal (according to the formula P=VA) nearly 25 times over the standard X-10 signal. So far, the only problem has been a chime module that "sings" softly whenever the XTB transmits, and that was solved by moving it further away from the XTB.

Tremendous improvement. I was considering scrapping my significant X-10 investment because the signal problems became worse every year. I was about at wit's end when the XTB came along and I figure it's saved me 1,000's of $ and 100's of hours of deinstalling X-10 gear and installing new stuff. The only reason why I waited long enough for the XTB to "rescue me" was that I couldn't decide which new HA protocol to switch to. I would have probably gone with Z-wave. But I wouldn't have gone over happily.

With the mandated switch to CFL's coming soon, I am afraid that the XTB is going to become mandatory for most X-10 installations. Fluorescent lights have become the number one source of X-10 "trouble on the line" for a lot of people - especially me. Last month, a shoplite that had shown no X-10 band noise for the first few years of its life began emitting noise at nearly 2 volts - strong enough to cause plenty of trouble. Even the mighty XTB had trouble coping with such "loud" noise on the line at the end of long circuit branch and that load had to be filtered.

I've had to invest more heavily than I'd like in X-10 filters, but the filters allow me to use fluorescent bulbs without problem, and with the recent huge hikes in electricity rates, they'll pay for themselves in short order. Eventually, anything 110VAC that's got a light socket will be behind an X-10 filter. I've found that nearly identical runs of CFL's can have significantly different electrical characteristics and God only knows what LEDs will do to X-10 (or other HA signals) when that technology matures. So it's filters everywhere, but it's a small price to pay to enjoy a break in electrical rates and be enviro-friendly at the same time.

-- Bobby G.

Reply to
Robert Green

Thanks for the responses, Robert.

As I understand it, each alternating row of breakers (left/right) gets its power from alternating sides of the supplied power. So the first row gets its power from supply A while the second gets its power from supply B and the third from supply A, etc, etc. Is this correct?

With the above assumed, I did some checking and I believe that the interior light circuit and the circuit on which the mini controller is installed come off two different supplies (A and B) and this would cause problems. I also found that the exterior light circuit was on the same supply at the mini controller. This would explain why it worked first time, every time.

To confirm this, I moved the controller to a different part of the house where it appeared the power is supplied from the same source as the garage interior light circuit. In this configuration, the mechanism seems to work flawlessly. I would expect, however, that such a change would result in a degrading of operation on the exterior light circuit. But it does not appear to have that result. Perhaps it is due to the lack of fluorescent fixtures on the exterior light circuit (at least for now).

I still need to check the circuits on which my CM11A and Radio Shack timer/controller are located but it seems I have a 50% chance of their being on the "wrong" side as well.

So it appears that I might need a coupler/repeater. I have been reading and trying to understand Jeff's site. It is a bit much for me technically. Your article helps a little more but I still feel a bit lost. One thing for sure is that I would need an assembled unit from Jeff. I have no real electronic skills (I am a software guy and hardware escapes me).

I basically understand the plug-in SignalLinc products as well as the hardwired ones like these and . So can you can help me understand Jeff's products?

(a) The XTB unit seems less than ideal for my purposes as it lacks a bridge between both power supply sources. It also seems like my controller MUST be plugged into the XTB (but I am not sure about this) for it to boost its output. If true, I'd need one per controller and that seems inefficient for my needs (I have three now and likely more in the future).

(b) I am not sure but it seems like the XTB-IIR does NOT require that my controller be plugged into it directly (even though it appears to have a plug to support this). Is this correct?

(c) Does the XTB-IIR need to be on its own set of dedicated breakers like the hardwired units from Smarthome?

(d) It seems like Jeff wants the XTB-IIR to be connected to a 3 or 4 prong outlet rather than being directly wired to the panel. Since I do not plan to plug any controller into it, it would be more convenient to hardwire it inside the main panel (if the box will fit in there) like one would with the other hardwired units. Is this possible/supported? If so, what are the dimensions of the XTB-IIR?

(e) The lack of UL and the need to sign a waiver is a point of concern. Has anyone checked how this might affect their home owner's insurance should a fire happen (even if not the fault of the XTB-IIR)?

(f) How/why are Jeff's units better than this unit or this one or this one ?

Thanks for all your time and response.

Reply to
David White

David White wrote: snip>

David, The legs alternate vertically in the panel so a 220 volt circuit is made up of 2 breakers, one above the other with a bar connecting the handles:

A-110 A leg >220volts B-110 B leg A-110 A leg B-110 B leg

RE a & b: Correct on a. For b, you do not have to plug your controller into the XTB-IIR. It will operate as repeater for all signals it receives. It can, however, replace the TW523 and generate X10 signals from TTL input.

RE c: You don't HAVE to use dedicated breakers but if there's room in your panel it's good practice to do so.

RE d: The size is 4.5"x4.5"x2" and yes, you could put it in the panel and hardwire it if there is room. It generates no appreciable heat.

RE e: Insurance policies vary so you need to check yours. Unless it could be proven that the XTB-IIR was the cause of the fire I don't see how a claim could be denied.

RE f: I have tried ALL of those over the years. They boost to a maximum of 5 volts and don't handle dimming very well. The XTB-IIR boosts to

20volts and is, by far, superior to the ones you listed plus the Smarthome plug-in version and the other ACT model you didn't list - and that's all there are.

Bottom line: Don't waste your money on any other X10 signal coupler, booster or repeater.

Reply to
BruceR

Whoa there on the advice regarding panels. Are you a licensed electrician and expert in the electrical code?

Has the gear been tested and certified as being safe for installation inside a breaker box?

If not then why put the considerable value of your home at risk on such nonsense?

Real bottom line? Give up on the X-10 crap, it's junk.

Reply to
Bill Kearney

Thanks to all. I am discussing this with my electrician as I am not into risk. But giving up on X-10 at this point is not a great option for me (and many more I am sure). Other than occasional glitches, it seems to work very well and the costs are pretty low. It is not like any of this stuff is life/death so the occasional glitch can be tolerated and, hopefully, patched.

But I am out of space in my panel. So to do anything but a plug-in unit from Smarthome will require I get some duplex breakers. But that may be easier than the plug-in as my dryer has no room behind it.

Bill Kearney wrote:

Reply to
David White

I have a passive phase coupler I purchased about 8-10 years ago and installed myself. It is a UL Listed device. My entire house is reachable as long as I'm not running any fans near the receivers.

If I were start> Whoa there on the advice regarding panels. Are you a licensed

As near as I understand it, you don't need to be licensed to wire in your own house. You are probably required to get it inspected. Of course there is risk working in your box unless you get the electric company to pull the meter.

Reply to
Bob Fish

Giving up wasn't a great option for me either. The wiring is 60 years old and I didn't want to have to fuss with it to change out switches. Had I bought Insteon instead of the XTB, I probably would have had to pull the switches twice because of their big upgrade a.k.a. recall over the dimming problem.

"Dual Skinnies" install quite easily. I had to swap out some single width breakers for duals, as I too was out of circuits. It should take a licensed electrician 5 minutes, tops. It took a little longer for me since the new breakers looked quite different from the old ones and hooked onto the power bus a little differently. I ended up added four new GFCI protected outlets and replaced single width breakers that had been tripped so many times that the white lettering had worn off. )-:

Now we can use the toaster oven, the microwave and the electric griddle all at the same time, too, so there was a great SAF boost to getting the electrical upgrade. Another circuit powers the new outside CFL fixtures because the old circuits didn't bring a neutral to the switch. All of this work was inspired by the arrival of the XTB-IIR. From my experiences with the non-coupler XTB version, I realized that a high-powered repeater/coupler would eliminate most of my problems and it did. It's *so* nice not to have to remember that only the mini-controller in the bedroom can reach the hallway light, etc, etc.

Bobby G.

Reply to
Robert Green

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