Door Bell Install Via Homerun Closet

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I have a bit of an unusual situation. I wired up my house when I did a
remodel to install a key system and an intercom at the front door. As
such all I did was run a four pair Cat5e from the doorbell to the
homerun closet. I have decided not to install a key system but instead,
just a doorbell. Unfortunately i did not run a doorbell wire from the
location where the doorbell would be to the front door to the chime
location and back to the transformer! What I did do is run a four pair
Cat5e from the front doorbell to the homerun closet as well as a four
pair Cat5e from the area where the chime would be mounted to the homerun
closet. Couldn't I just connect the the same color e.g. (brown
white/white brown) pair to the front doorbell as well as the same at the
chime and do all of the cross connects in the homerun closet to complete
the circuit and energize the doorbell. That is, connect the doorbell to
the chime with the same half of the pair and the other two conductors
(one from the doorbell and one from the chime go to the transformer,
that will be mounted in the homerun closet. There is not another way for
me to install a hard wired doorbell. Help if you can. If this does not
make sense, please let me know. Any suggestions or advice would be
appreciated.

Re: Door Bell Install Via Homerun Closet


<michael roback> wrote:
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In a word, yes.  Most modern doorbells are electronic and they draw minimal
amperage so the CAT5 cable will be fine.

--

Regards,
Robert L Bass

==============================>
Bass Home Electronics
DIY Alarm and Home Automation Store
http://www.bassburglaralarms.com
Sales & Service 941-870-2310
Fax 941-870-3252
==============================>


Re: Door Bell Install Via Homerun Closet



michael.roback-85C4B0.15564613092009@earthlink.vsrv-sjc.supernews.net...
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check with the local electrician to know if there is a minimum required wire
gauge for doorbell, cause even if you use electronics one that are ok with
small wire, next home owner could want to use a big doorbell that has large
gong on it and it could draw much more power..

 


Re: Door Bell Install Via Homerun Closet



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What's the use of that?  The cable there is the cable that is there.  The
OP just wants to know if he can use it - he already said that he can not
now add any heavier duty cable.  What reason would he have for inquiring
with electricians whether future owners could use it in different ways?

I believe Cat5 uses 24 AWG wires, good for say 0.577mA, so all four pairs
could be joined to carry around 2 1/4 amps continuously and even more for
briefer periods of ringing.  I'd say you can run a heck of a noise maker
through that, else why not operate a relay to control a bell louder than a
fire station uses to call the volunteers from the fields and factories?

Tony

Re: Door Bell Install Via Homerun Closet



groupe de discussion : b865b5tr8aovajdqc0skpiiu2p7u4dud9g@4ax.com...
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yup thats a good way for putting a place in fire..

lets say he twist 4 wire for one conductor and the same for another
conductor, thats all right.. but with time at some jonction 3 out of 4 wire
come loose and only 1 is left for the whole job.. now a short come on some
part of the wirring and the the transfo is not a protected type one.. after
some time heat will develop from the small wire and could eventualy provide
just enough heat to start a fire in the wall..

good thing he have some fire insurance... bad thing he didn't do his wiring
ok, they wont pay..

if there is a minimum gauge writen somewhere in the electrical book of his
state or province, he should follow it, thats it... usingm multi wire to
provide a large enough gauge is not something ok in any of the books  i've
read..

 


Re: Door Bell Install Via Homerun Closet


"Petem" wrote:
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That is utter nonsense.  Once terminated at the device none of the conductors
will slip out of a bundle like that.

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That is also nonsense.  Insurance policies are not nullified because a
homeowner makes a wiring mistake.  That's a fiction told by some
"professional" technicians in hopes of deterring people from doing their own
work.

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In the US it's almost invariably 16-gauge.

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It's fairly common practice among low voltage installers though it's not the
"preferred" technique.

--

Regards,
Robert L Bass

==============================>
Bass Home Electronics
DIY Alarm and Home Automation Store
http://www.bassburglaralarms.com
Sales & Service 941-870-2310
Fax 941-870-3252
==============================>


Re: Door Bell Install Via Homerun Closet



groupe de discussion : f-CdnUO04K-G1CnXnZ2dnUVZ_oKdnZ2d@giganews.com...
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If done by a pro, there is minimal chance that something will happen, but we
have NO idea how this home owner is when working with wirring.


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If a job is done out of the code, there is a BIG possibility that insurance
company wont pay. They will try to pull out of any contract if you give them
the chance...You know about this pretty sure, just pay your health care
insurance late and your dead..



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So you have the anwer... but 16 gauge or dont use that wiring.. or use what
was supposed to plug there..



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It is common practice, but still a no no if you have to comply to code..

on burglar alarm system, it could be ok, on a powered device without fusing
, i dont think its ok..

 


Re: Door Bell Install Via Homerun Closet


"Petem" wrote:
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Whether done by a paid installer or a DIY homeowner, wires twisted together
under a screw terminal just don't unravel.
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Wrong again.  Take a look at a few homeowner's insurance policies.  I have.

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Apples to oranges, my friend.

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The funny thing about this is that in hundreds of "professional" security
systems that I took over during the 24 years I ran an alarm company, it was
and is common practice to double up 22-gauge, 4-conductor wire for sirens and
transformers, both of which usually call for 18-gauge wire.  None of those
installations ever had a fire caused by the practice.

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The funny thing is that it is commn practice among professional installers --  
the people you say he must hire to get the job done right.

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We're talking about a low current doorbell / phone interface.  The most
popular brand is called "Doorbell Fon" and that unit draws very minimal
current.  The installation instructions don't even specify what gauge wire to
use.  The only current spec mentioned is for the system's output -- 25mA,
which would run nicely on a single 22-gauge wire.  Somehow I doubt he'll burn
his house down with this.  :^)

--

Regards,
Robert L Bass

==============================>
Bass Home Electronics
DIY Alarm and Home Automation Store
http://www.bassburglaralarms.com
Sales & Service 941-870-2310
Fax 941-870-3252
==============================>


Re: Door Bell Install Via Homerun Closet



groupe de discussion : 3K2dndviDf49xivXnZ2dnUVZ_jKdnZ2d@giganews.com...
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And what about the jonction in the middle of the circuit? and even under
some screw if the wiring is short, the home owner can make bigger mistake
that you think.



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I dont know on what place on earth you live..(in fact i know where you say
you live, but it must be somewhere else) cause here in Canada, if you dont
install electrical stuff on par with the code, your doomed, and the
insurance wont pay..


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insurance and contract, both the same thing..


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show me when I called for ALARM technician on this? i spoke about
electrician.. your meds must be too strong...

And its not because its working on sirene and class 2 transfo with alarm,
that it will be ok with a class 1 transfo with out fusing...
you are mixing many thing...


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Where am I talking about low voltage installers?

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Yup and the next home owner will use a regular doorbell with a class 1
transfo and the place could burn down if the doorbell or the wiring get
shorted...

 


Re: Door Bell Install Via Homerun Closet


"Petem" wrote:
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There is no need for a junction in the middle of the circuit in this project.
If there was, I would suggest the gentleman solder and cover the splice with
shrink wrap.  Done right there's no problem, though as I said it's really not
necessary to make a mid point splice.

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Under a screw?  What are you talking about?

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Yes, you do.  You know full well I live in Florida.

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I don't work in Canada but I've heard "professional" installers who work in
the USA make the same bogus argument for years and it's nonsense.

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I mentioned alarm technicians because that's the industry I'm in.  I didn't
say that you did.

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I used sirens and transformers as an example to illustrate the point.  Sorry
if that confused you.

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We are discussing a low voltage DIY project.  Do you believe that an
electrician is needed for all low voltage work as well?

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Yeah, sure.  Can I interest you in a nice bridge, too?

--

Regards,
Robert L Bass

==============================>
Bass Home Electronics
DIY Alarm and Home Automation Store
http://www.bassburglaralarms.com
Sales & Service 941-870-2310
Fax 941-870-3252
==============================>


Re: Door Bell Install Via Homerun Closet




groupe de discussion : k8KdnSGm7b9oayvXnZ2dnUVZ_hKdnZ2d@giganews.com...
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As allways you didnt read the OP message. in the OP message he is speaking
about adding  a transfo mid way of his 2 run of wire..

so there is no need to answer anything else comming from you, as allways you
are talking about anything with out knowing..
 


Re: Door Bell Install Via Homerun Closet


"petem" wrote:
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Au contraire, mon ami.  It was you who failed to read the OP's original
message.  Here is what he said.

"Couldn't I just connect the the same color e.g. (brown white/white brown)
pair to the front doorbell as well as the same at the chime and do all of the
cross connects in the homerun closet to complete the circuit and energize the
doorbell."

There is nothing about a mid-wire splice.  He wants to connect the transformer
and the door station each to one end of the CAT5 cables.  The other end of the
cables will be connected to the controller (which he will need to locate in
the "homerun closet."

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You are turning a disagreement about a technical issue into personal
nastiness.  Feel free not to answer when I post if that suits you.  Either
way, you're wrong about what is being done and you're wrong about needing an
electrician (or any other "professional" installer) to hook up a simple, low
current device such as the OP intends.

By the way, most of the participants in this newsgroup are DIYers.  Many have
designed and/or installed whole-house lighting controls, security systems,
HVAC automation, etc.  You're not likely to get a warm reception with
condescending remarks to the effect that they need an electrician to hook up a
doorbell.

--

Regards,
Robert L Bass

==============================>
Bass Home Electronics
DIY Alarm and Home Automation Store
http://www.bassburglaralarms.com
Sales & Service 941-870-2310
Fax 941-870-3252
==============================>


Re: Door Bell Install Via Homerun Closet



groupe de discussion : NI-dnRunU-GUhiXXnZ2dnUVZ_t2dnZ2d@giganews.com...
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You forgot to had:

What I did do is run a four pair
Cat5e from the front doorbell to the homerun closet as well as a four
pair Cat5e from the area where the chime would be mounted to the homerun
closet

then he wrote:

(one from the doorbell and one from the chime go to the transformer,
that will be mounted in the homerun closet.

if that is not a mid run jonction, I wonder what it is..



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Nope I just posted that you didnt even read the OP and now you TRY to go
away with part of his original post.. typical of you..


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Never said that he HAD to use an electrician,. just pointed that he should
ASK one to be sure he comply with code...

and that if he doesnt comply change the wiring and do it properly..

the one that have an agenda here is you.. go back to alarm and leave real
answer to the one that know..

 


Re: Door Bell Install Via Homerun Closet


"Petem" wrote:
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Had???

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Right.  The controller has to go in the homerun closet.  The other devices are
each attached to the other end of a direct cable run from there.  How does
this become a mid-point splice in the cable?  Even if it were so (which it is
not), splicing is easy.

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Well, commence wondering then because it's not.

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Show me where what I said was incorrect and I'll bow in utmost respect.  So
far it appears you either don't understand what the OP said, what I am saying,
basic cabling requirements or all of the above.

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To which I replied, "Nonsense!"

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He's doing it properly.  The only issue is whether the cable is of sufficient
gauge to handle the current.  Normal CAT5 will do just fine.

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That's kind of rude, don't you think?  At any rate, since I'm in the process
of getting out of the business I've no agenda at all.  Like you, I posted to
offer advice to the OP.  We simply disagree about what constitutes good
advice.

--

Regards,
Robert L Bass

==============================>
Bass Home Electronics
DIY Alarm and Home Automation Store
http://www.bassburglaralarms.com
Sales & Service 941-870-2310
Fax 941-870-3252
==============================>


Re: Door Bell Install Via Homerun Closet



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That's gotta be one HELL of a doorbell to need more than an AMP or so.


Re: Door Bell Install Via Homerun Closet


"G. Morgan" wrote:
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It's an imaginary doorbell.  :^)

--

Regards,
Robert L Bass

==============================>
Bass Home Electronics
DIY Alarm and Home Automation Store
http://www.bassburglaralarms.com
Sales & Service 941-870-2310
Fax 941-870-3252
==============================>

Re: Door Bell Install Via Homerun Closet



groupe de discussion : 85KdnSyyFq5aXCTXnZ2dnUVZ_tWdnZ2d@giganews.com...
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nope its a mess in preparation.. a short can happen , and if does what
protection does the OP have against a fire.. none

 


Re: Door Bell Install Via Homerun Closet



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I advised him to put an inline fuse in there, but realistically a short will
simply pop the secondary on the x-former.

There is not enough heat to generate a fire in your senario, even with a dead
short.  The current is too small to melt anything.

So....Let me ask you this:  What about PoE?  It is rated for about ~460mA,
where's your concern for a fire there?


Re: Door Bell Install Via Homerun Closet




discussion : pr0mb51nevu1smb1u6icqqhqsci0n98e0n@4ax.com...
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ok if its fused... but who put fuse on a doorbell? And the OP never talked
about that.

and what about the transfo, is it a class 1 or a class 2, a class 2 transfo
will pop open on the primary if the secondary get overloaded, but not a
class 1, since the OP is a DIY he could easily go to a electronic surplus
store and buy a class1 transfo, they are really cheap for 16 to 24 volt ...
and a small 40 VA would do the job... now think 40 VA or 40 watt on a small
22 wire, yup we know he is supposed to use 4 not just one wire, but lets
think about a catastrophic failure, were only one of the 4 wire is properly
connected for what ever reason(could be rats or mice chewing the cable
ect.).

this small wire will over heat quite fast if the cable get sorted somewhere
in the wall (again from the rat) what do you think of this scenario? likely
to happen.. likely not, could happen yes, code say that you should not used
isolated wire to build up a gauge, its ok to use multiple tread of wire is a
single wire, they all touch each other all along the cable so if one fail
its connecting back a few micrometer after...But that's not the case in
cat5e cable...

code have been made cause someone once said, its ok I will use multiple wire
to provide power somewhere, all of them together can carry the current
needed, but shit happen and some of the conductor failed then everything
failed..

the gauge is supposed to be 16 he should use that.

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see answer on top..

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PoE is protected against overload, and they only use 2 wire........why do
you think there is an overload protection? the max amp output is around 500
ma...how do you think they achieve this? by putting protection, cant have a
fire there...

but do remember in the OP case we are talking about around 40 VA.. or 2.5
amp at 16 volt... its far from 500 mA at 5 volt, or 2.50 VA

one thing you should consider, with a small 1.5 volt battery one can solder
a joint in a circuit.. with this:

(Amazon.com product link shortened)

and there is the fact that a 40 watt iron can burn wood, again, simple logic
should lead you to say that there is a probability, if some condition are
there, for a catastrophic failure. that's why the code say 16 gauge in a
single wire for doorbell...


Bass should be happy he now have friends hellping him, but still he wont
win... ;-)

 


Re: Door Bell Install Via Homerun Closet



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I think the chances are about 1 in 10^100 that the wire will melt and cause
enough heat.  Besides, the OP asked if he could double up the pairs, I say
yes.   I'd do it in a heartbeat if that was the only way.

I think you're arguing just for the sake of your opinion of Robert, not an
actual concern for safety.

The OP hasn't even responded back with the specifics of the bell.




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